014: Tiffany & Corey

Written By Tiffany Yu

Tiffany & Corey | Black & Exhausted, Allyship is Being the Trusted Sidekick ft. Corey Ponder, Em|PACT Strategies

Listen on: Apple // Spotify // Google

In this episode, we’re joined by Corey Ponder, an empathy practitioner and the founder of Em|PACT Strategies, to chat about anti-Black racism and allyship through empathy and being the trusted sidekick.

We discussed:

  • Corey’s journey to starting Em|PACT Strategies

  • Types of empathy: compassionate empathy, affective empathy and cognitive empathy

  • Allyship is being the trusted sidekick

  • On being black and exhausted

  • Why we still need trusted sidekicks to show up in the everyday moments and confront ugly truths

  • Calling people in by connecting on shared universal experiences

  • Ways conversations quickly turn into debates

  • How allyship journey starts with showing up in the everyday moments, confronting the ugly truths, and changing habits

Show Notes

About Corey Ponder

Corey Ponder is an empathy practitioner and educator who works with innovative companies and individuals to build safe spaces for inclusive and diverse experiences.  

Corey believes in the power of human connection and how that drives real impact.  Over his 10 years of professional experience as a policy analyst in the public sector and a program manager and policy professional in the private sector, Corey knows that an emphasis on emotional intelligence—self-awareness, empathy, and interpersonal skills—leads to a more committed, productive, and engaged workforce creating a real impact in the workplace and spaces they occupy.

Corey has scaled diversity initiatives across several companies, including with CIA and Facebook, and has spoken on allyship and empathy for several organizations, including Chan Zuckerberg initiative, Fitbit, MomWarrior, and Expedia.  He has also developed and facilitated over 60 workshops on allyship, bias, privilege, and building empathy across the tech industry.  He continues to publish on these topics as well — essays, podcasts, and articles — most recently being featured in Fortune Magazine's raceAhead newsletter.  

Corey holds a Master's in Public Policy from the University of California, Berkeley and a Bachelor's in Political Science from Vanderbilt University.

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Transcript

Tiffany Yu: Hi everyone. It's Tiffany Yu and you're listening to this episode of Tiffany & Yu. I have with me today, the founder of Em|PACT Strategies, Corey Ponder. Hi Corey! 

Corey Ponder: Hello! How's it going? 

Tiffany Yu: It is going okay. I feel like, "How's it going?" these days, it's a loaded question. I don't know if you're feeling the same way.

Corey Ponder: No, absolutely. But I do think that at a certain point, maybe a few years ago, I actually told myself that when people ask that question, I'm going to wait around to hear the answer. And so I know we usually expect people to just say good and keep moving, but I really am curious when I ask, how are you doing? Like really, how are you doing? 

Tiffany Yu: I love that. Well, I'm doing okay. So Corey and I, I believe we met, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, did we meet in 2016 at StartingBloc Unplugged? 

Corey Ponder: We did. Yeah. 

Tiffany Yu: Okay. So Corey and I are both part of StartingBloc, which is a social innovation boot camp for people who were looking to become leaders in the social impact space. And I was part of the New York 2015 cohort. When did you do it? 

Corey Ponder: Oh, we did the same year. I was DC 2015. So probably later in the year, I think New York came in earlier. Yeah. 

Tiffany Yu: Interesting. Participating in StartingBloc, it was August 2015. It was actually the first time that I had started to get more involved in the social impact space, because at that time I was starting to ramp up Diversability and other things like that. So StartingBloc has played a large role in my social justice journey.

Corey Ponder: Yeah. I actually remember coming to StartingBloc because I was looking to shift my life really, but certainly was thinking only about it professionally. And when I came into that space, I felt so encouraged to be more active and to use my voice more and to build things that I thought were actually good for the world. So I think at the time I was working on a website that was focused on elevating the voices of young writers. But I feel like after StartingBloc, there've been so many ideas that have been inside of me that I felt more confident to birth. So StartingBloc was very helpful for building my confidence in that space as well.

Tiffany Yu: I love that. I really liked talking about origin stories. So I'd love to hear about your journey to starting Em|PACT Strategies. As I was doing research for this, I know that the dotted line flowing through all of this is your desire to influence and shift behavior.  

Corey Ponder: Absolutely. So if I were to think about an origin story, there are two points that I have to highlight when it comes to Em|PACT Strategies. The first actually was a few years ago. I can't remember exactly when the study came out, but there was a study done on the power of empathy. And I think it was specifically called "Durably reducing transphobia" and the researchers were going into communities and they were essentially thinking about what topics can we tackle that has some very contentious or very deeply held views? And can we use what they call deep canvassing to help shift and change the perspective of other people or the people that we're talking to?  One of the things that I really appreciated about this was that the article really focused on the power of listening, the power of taking time to understand someone and to understand why they believe what they believe; actually helped in this particular case when targeting anti transgender prejudice that just by listening to people, they were able to reduce that prejudice and not only reduce it, but reduce it statistically in a way that persisted for over three months. And so I thought that was interesting to see like, Oh, here's a study on empathy, something that's so often seen as an intangible. How do you measure it? How do you think about it? Done in this way where it's very much measured and very much shows us impact on the way we think or the way we behave. And then, I would say the second moment, and this was the kind of impetus for at least starting the business was then coming up on the moment where Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, two black men were murdered essentially by two police officers in two different scenarios in two different places, but essentially doing just everyday things. And it really hit me. This was one of the earliest instances that I remember of us seeing Facebook Live I think was a platform where it went viral. But seeing kind of a live moment where somebody was being victimized by police overreach and police brutality. And as a black man that really impacted me on a personal level. And I just remember how important empathy was to me in that moment, because I remember going to work the next day after these back to back instances and trying to move on business as usual, because it wasn't really something that people talked publicly about or that I trusted people to talk to me about empathetically. And I remember my manager came in and showed up for me in a very empathetic way. And so these two things really made me think about. Wow, the power of empathy. I think there's something here, like really thinking about how that can help transform and move us forward, particularly in difficult conversations with difficult moments.

Tiffany Yu: I love that. We have had a couple guests on our podcast talk about empathy, but in terms of tackling our mental health crisis. And so what is interesting with the work you're doing is it's tackling empathy, but centered around identity.  So what is your definition of empathy? What does it look for you? 

Corey Ponder: Yes. So I'm going to nerd out for a bit because I love diving into this. So I think of empathy specifically as compassionate empathy. And I think when people refer to empathy, there's two ways that we think of it naturally. And one of those is what psychologists call affective empathy, which is the "I feel what you feel" type of empathy. So it's that I see you crying and that really makes me want to cry too. And then that way it seems like we're having a shared sense of empathy . The other way that naturally I think people lean into or talk about empathy is a perspective-taking empathy or the cognitive empathy. And it's that idea of, Hey, I want to understand why you feel sad. So you came in the room and said that this hurts you, and now I'm asking you, well, why did it hurt you? Tell me about this particular experience. Maybe let me problem solve, get to the bottom of why that might be a thing that made you sad. And so the reason why I talked about compassionate empathy as separate from those is because in those two scenarios, I think that they lean into, or they could, if they are taken to the extremes, they lean into areas that don't fully center the person, right? So if you lean into affective or emotional empathy, you might be so connected to the emotion and the emotional pain that it blows you out, or it stresses you out in a way that you're then not able to see the person and what their needs are in that moment. So like, if you're overcome by the grief of that person and you're only focused on their sadness, you might not even be able to comprehend that the reason why they're sad is because they feel like a victim or they feel afraid or unsafe. And then on the other end, if you're so focused on taking perspective and problem solving, you really miss the opportunity to hear the person and hear why it matters to them. So you might be so focused on creating a solution that you're not actually taking time to see the problem. Compassionate empathy is about basically feeling what somebody feels, but then being compelled to act and act from a place of support or validation. And so that's how I think of empathy because it's not an art, it's not really either-or, it's going to take a combination of both of those types of skillsets, perspective-taking and feeling, and most important is going to be centering the person and what they need in that moment, so that you can lean into the things that are going to be most helpful to them. 

Tiffany Yu: Yeah. And I think what is fascinating about the work you're doing is it is person centered work and bringing empathy into the workplace. Right? Because in the example you shared of being affected by the news, you're carrying that into the office as part of the identities that you hold, as part of  I would call it race-based trauma that you're bringing in.   We're gonna take a quick break here and then when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about allyship, what's going on in the news, and the Medium post you wrote recently. 

Corey Ponder: Awesome.

[break]

Tiffany Yu: And we're back from the break here. This is Tiffany on this episode of Tiffany & Yu. I have with me the founder of Em|PACT Strategies. Before the break, we were chatting about compassionate empathy, and I want to share a little tidbit about Corey and I, because we met in 2016, then we actually reconnected in 2018 because Diversability was hosting an event on allyship. And what makes me really excited is that I noticed that you have the link to the video in your email signature. 

Corey Ponder: I do. I was so happy and proud to be a part of that moment. I was like, Wow, Tiffany and Diversability. And I get to be on this panel. This is amazing. So yes, I am proud of that recording.

Tiffany Yu: So I was excited to have you on the show because I do want to be respectful of  those of us who are reaching out to our Black friends during this time and emotional labor. But we've been talking about allyship for years, right? That event was in 2018. Your talk , it was really about, allyship to you looked like being a trustee sidekick through the lens of different Disney films.

Corey Ponder: Yes. Yes. I am a nerd, so I love Marvel movies. I love comic books. I love Disney and certainly Disney characters. And so what I talked about in that conversation was just that we think of allyship sometimes as needing to take on the mantle of a hero. And the problem with that is that it can overwhelm us, one if we're thinking about all that needs to be done to do this good work, but also it centers us as the main focus point of the story. And again, allyship is not that. Allyship is actually being the trusted sidekick. It's being the character who's along for the journey and the character who was there and using their abilities to help their protagonist of the story.  I kind of highlighted three things that were consistent about sidekicks that I have seen across movies, comic books and TV shows. And those things were being there for the everyday moments. I mean, every sidekick that you know is usually there to fight with the hero in both the battles that in the movie, as well as the low C level, D level villains that show up. They're also willing to confront ugly truths about themselves in their environment is the second point, because they often come in with some type of character flaw that they have to deal with through their journey of working with the hero. And trusted sidekicks are using their privilege, or in this case, their super powers or abilities to help the protagonist or the hero of the story.  Again, I think that's a critical way to think of allyship as you think of showing up for somebody in their story. It's not you showing up to do the thing you think is right to save the day, but it's about understanding what they need or what they believe will save the day and then leveraging your privilege and your powers to help them. So I think that the sidekick framing is a great way to think about allyship, which is why I led with that at your event, and shared that at your event. 

Tiffany Yu: And , we're recording this in mid June and a lot has changed. Or maybe nothing has changed. You posted an article on Medium  . There's a phrase in there that's repeated a couple of times that says "I am proud to be black. And also, being black is exhausting." Can you unpack that?   

Corey Ponder: Thanks for reading that. I think, like you said, we're in this moment right now, where after a month of attacks essentially on black bodies and black identity with Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery being, coming to light in May though those were perpetrated before then, and also George Floyd. And then, the incident in New York, in Central Park with the bird watching and being in the park and suddenly being attacked for saying something about  a rule that everybody should be following. I just felt very beat down. I think that's the one way that I could describe that month. So for me, writing has often been a source of releasing catharsis and processing, and I felt like it was necessary initially to just journal. But as I journaled, I felt that there were tidbits that were coming out of it to come to the exhaustion piece, which really signaled, like I'm exhausted because I think that as a black person and as a black man that I spend my life essentially being a protest, like, my life, the way I live my life has become a protest of stereotypes. It's become a protest of expectations of what people are supposed to see me as, as I enter into different spaces. And so that article was almost like my moment to say like, Hey. I am probably other black people as well in this country, especially are processing everyday just to live their life with some type of dignity or some type of pride about who they are because to do that usually means confronting these notions that we should not be proud to be black, because we should think of ourselves as inferior. We get signals that we're second class citizens in this country or that we're not able to, or should be able to, access the same things as other people. And that is the exhausting piece because it's like, I want to walk with my head held high, so grateful for the culture and identity that I have been able to access and build as a black man. And also that notion of feeling like every day, I'm having to basically protest to define my existence here is exhausting. 

Tiffany Yu: Yeah. I'm curious, we started this conversation talking about empathy and how important that was, and then talking about this trusted sidekick of the allyship. Do you think those still play into what you would like allyship to look like?

Corey Ponder: I think even more so now. It actually just solidified for me the importance of those steps. In particular, being there for the everyday moments and also confronting ugly truth. So I think on the first one, being there for the everyday moments. What I am seeing right now, and this has been coming up a lot in other mediums or other articles from other activists is this idea of, now is the moment where if you're angry, we want to make sure that the anger is not performative or that it's not allyship that is about feeling good or feeling like you're on the right side of history. But is actually a real indication that people are ready to do the work. And so being there for the everyday moments is the opposite of performative allyship. So it is important to raise your voice, it is important to go out and protest and lend your bodies, your voice in sacrifice that time for those who are going out on the front lines to protest police brutality, but also what are you doing in those everyday moments, in the job, in the house that you occupy, in the friends groups or circles that you were in to combat stereotypes of those same people that you're protesting or saying I'll put a social media post up for. So I think that's especially critical now. And then with the ugly truth piece, I think there is certainly as we have these conversations around race and identity, I think there is still some processing that needs to happen in this country around being able to recognize that, Hey, we have all been impacted by the system of race, racism in this country, because it has been a part of the fabric of American culture for so long. And so to accept that might feel uncomfortable because that means you have to accept that probably somebody in your history was a slave owner, somebody probably in your history might have spat on or lashed out at a black person trying to integrate a school at some point. Maybe you were a descendant of a slave at some point in, like somebody in your tree was a slave. And so there's like this real conversation around ugly truths that I think we, through privileges, allies, people often,  I think have the luxury to avoid, right? Like you don't actually have to confront that on a day to day basis. And I think it's even more important now to do the work, to confront that reality literally every day to think about that. Like, yes, I might be a descendant of a slave owner. I might have grown up in a family where we intentionally tried to segregate ourselves into white neighborhoods so that we wouldn't have to integrate. What does that mean for me and where I am today? Maybe I don't use any racial slurs, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I am absolved of thinking or existing in a racist system.

Tiffany Yu: So there's a quote in your Medium piece that says, "Growth only happens when we choose to be uncomfortable or to become more comfortable with discomfort. And right now, I'm listening to White Fragility on audio book. The author of White Fragility talks a lot about the good-bad binary, which is when someone is called out for racist behavior, they equate that with being bad. And then they don't want to engage in that conversation. And it's similar to the way we talk about privilege. When we say someone has privilege, then what I noticed is that that person will tell me all the ways that they're not. How can we call people in ?

Corey Ponder: It is so hard, I think because I do think we've ascribed a certain level of morality to the conversation around privilege and around, are you a racist? I see that happen where people who would say, I've never used a racial slur, so how can you talk to me about being racist? Or people who are like, I've never actively tried to exclude people from any race from my friend circle, how can you call me racist? Those do come from a place of, like you said, moral objection to the fact that  I'm a bad person and that's what you're saying. I think that it's hard. And I recognize that for those of us who come from typically,  underrepresented, historically underrepresented communities that do we're already doing so much work to just exist in a space that I wouldn't be hesitant to say, Hey, in addition to this, when you're having a conversation or when you're calling somebody in or pointing something out, you should take care to manage people's feelings or do it in a way that lands well with them. But I do think that this is where the empathy piece comes in. It's recognizing that , at least the way that I like to have the conversation. So again, this is truly my opinion. When I try to have these conversations, I try to think about, How can I connect these individuals that I'm about to speak to not necessarily to the fact that, Hey, because I'm black, I had a different experience than you. But how can I actually bring them into a common understanding of what exclusion feels like? Even if the circumstances under which we were excluded are definitely different. And so not to be flippant, but for somebody who might have been privileged in many, many different ways, they might still be able to deeply connect with the idea of exclusion because they weren't the most athletic person, or they remember getting picked last for the kickball team. Right. And so like, even if you think you have nothing in common with this person, I'd guarantee you, that all of us have felt exclusion at some point. You can relate to the feeling of being excluded, can feel what it really means to want to belong somewhere and to want to be accepted for who we are at that moment in our lives. And so, as I'm having these conversations, the difference between calling out versus calling in is like, actually, I think that's what calling in is, is like being empathetic to the fact that I think that our common human shared experience is the desire to belong. So whether it's I want to belong as a black man and feel free to be black, or it's like, I want to belong as somebody who has friends and wants me to participate in activities. There's still an innate sense of belonging there that I think we both can connect to. So I think that's when I try to call people in, I think that's how I try to have the conversation.

Tiffany Yu: Hmm. I love that. so I was able to catch you on Deliberate Discourse, which is a dinner series tackling some of these conversations. And I thought that you had some really great tips on how to engage in conversations, because there's a difference between having a conversation versus one that turns into a debate.

Corey Ponder: Yeah,  it's so easy I think to fall into this belief that conversations are debates. But I think on that call, one of the things that I wanted to highlight was that we can quickly go down a path where we turn a conversation into a debate just by the way we choose to engage. So for instance, especially when having conversations around topics like this, ascribing intent is a way where you shift the conversation to a debate. So saying that I believe that this is what you intended to say, as opposed to actually listening to what the person is saying. Weighing somebody's experiences against your own, you know, trying to evaluate how somebody said they see their world and you're like, I've never saw my world that way-- there's another way. Highlighting exceptions, where you're really quick to point out the one or two times that you saw something different than what the other person saw is another one. Critiquing logic. I think really turning it from a conversation about feeling and perspective into one of, "that doesn't seem logical or that argument doesn't make sense." Creating zero-sum scenarios, which is a big one. I think sometimes when we have these conversations around diversity and inclusion, we think that there's like if you do X, and that means I have to sacrifice Y and setting up arguments in that way automatically shifts it into a debate conversation as opposed to a conversation. Asking for proof. Again, I know that data helps and believe me being in tech, I feel like we talk data, data, data all the time, but I do think that there are some conversations, especially conversations about race and identity and experience, where it's less about the proof and more about understanding why the person feels that way and what they experienced. And then intellectualizing. So I like to think of this as starting off with the phrase, "To play devil's advocate" or, "Well, let's do a thought exercise here," not really helpful for a conversation. And then, particular to diversity, I think I mentioned diversity of thought because diversity of thought usually doesn't ended up centering the person, but tries to center this other idea that's removed from the person or their experiences. So if a person is talking about their identity and then the person who's talking to them shifts to but I think you can get a lot of perspectives from a lot of different people and not necessarily tied to your race or your ability. It's like, well, you didn't hear me say that. For me, my race has definitely shaped the way I see or think about the world. So those were some of the things that I shared about how we can shift from a conversation to debate really quickly. And then it becomes a different, whole different engagement.

Tiffany Yu: Yeah. I've been noticing when a conversation does turn into a debate and you feel the defensiveness, you feel that energy and I think when the conversation does turn more debate-like, there's a desire to just fight or flight, to just try and get out. I wanted to follow up on something you said around centering  It's been an interesting time to try and think about what the right course of action is because I think this comes back to what you're talking about in terms of the trusted sidekick -- And as the author who wrote White Fragility, she's a white woman. Right. And she can write about that and enter certain spaces and have conversations because she wears that identity. So she is centering whiteness in her case.   

Corey Ponder: So one of the things that I think for me resonates so much about doing this work is this book that I've been reading called The Power of Habit. I think it's a pretty popular book, but they map out a framework for how you think about habits and then how you have to rebuild them. And they talk about the cue, so the thing that makes us say, I want to do this habit and go on this loop. The reward, what you think you are going to get after you do this habit. And then the routine, which is in the middle, the automatic response to get to the reward. And so I think that this conversation around allyship and doing the work is really about changing habits. Right. And so I like to actually think about that a lot when we're talking about this. And so what can we do to change that routine that we automatically enter into without thinking, without really questioning it. And the more we do that, the more I think we actually can shift and change ourselves. For example, if I walk to work every single day , I might do that on autopilot without even thinking about what's happening, why I chose to walk to work, why I chose to walk that path that I did, and what the benefit of that is to me on the other end. And it could be if you really sat down and examine that every day that you walk that way to work, maybe because you're getting exercise, but also maybe subconsciously, you walk that way to work because you feel uncomfortable being on the subway because it's mostly people of color on the subway and like somewhere deep within you, that's actually what you're really responding to. And so I think this book was interesting to me because I think there are a lot of habits that we fall into. And it is supposed to be like that for evolution. We fall into without thinking. And I think this is the same thing, when we talk about propping up whiteness in this case or we think about propping up systems that oppress without thinking, say, yeah, this is how, because we go about our days without actually making a mental note of every decision we have to make. And one thing that I would just quickly say to go back to the article on why I feel like being black is exhausting or carrying many identities that are the, I would say the minority identity in society, or certainly the less privileged, is that usually because of those identities, you have a harder time actually being able to formulate real habits and just move through the world without thinking. Like, as a black man, I have to think about how close I am on the sidewalk to somebody. I have to think about the space I occupy. I have to think about the loudness of my voice. I don't just get to automatically do or make certain decisions around that. And so I think that is why it's exhausting, but I also think that's the work that if we're really trying to change and make allies real allies . Allies need to be that  exhausted too, need to be questioning every decision that they make, essentially, because it is exhausting, but that's also how you change the habit.

Tiffany Yu: Yeah. you talk about the hypervigilance, right? How you move about the world and that takes energy. I call it like the apps running in the background.

Corey Ponder: Perfect example. Draining the battery and you don't even know it. So you're on low battery alert. Like man.

 Tiffany Yu: I think everything you're talking about on autopilot, right? This is where our biases and our stereotypes were formed. Right. Is we're trying to make shortcuts. So how can we be more intentional and deliberate?   In terms of inner work, I'd love to hear your top three recommendations. 

Corey Ponder:  I'll think about something that you can read, something you can watch and something you can listen to. So for read, one of the books that really I appreciated was this book by Kenji Yoshino called Covering. And the reason why I appreciated it was because it explored, what does it feel like to have multiple identities that represent who you are? But then to lean into some because they make you more accepted in the culture and then to lean away from others because they make you feel ostracized or make you feel less than in culture. I think it was a really well done, a nuanced book to talk about multiple identities and intersectionality and how belonging actually works, right? We go on autopilot around the people and for some of the people in our lives every day, without thinking that they could be the representation of many different identities or that they are holding many different things. And because of that, we might miss or ignore those parts of who they are, especially in moments like what's happening right now, where black people around the country, I'm sure are really hurting and carrying this trauma in different ways, but have to show up with a different identity every day and cover that part of themselves. So that's to read. To watch, right now, given the climate in the conversation, I think you could start with watching the movie Just Mercy. I believe that Warner Brothers has made that free for people to rent. I think that it just encapsulates, if you want to have a conversation about injustice and the system and how a system can perpetuate racism. I think that movie is a perfect one to illustrate that. And then the third, I would say podcasts would be obviously Tiffany & Yu but also, I would say Code Switch on NPR because I think if you're thinking about how do you understand identity and how do you understand how identity has played different roles in culture and society and history, Code Switch really unpacked a lot of those different conversations. And it's just so interesting to listen to and get that knowledge. So those are three resources that I can think of off the top of my head. 

Tiffany Yu: That's great. One point on covering. I think what's been really interesting, at least part of my own journey is I will often tell people how liberating it is to be myself and what saying that made me reflect on was the fact that there are some people who can't. It got me thinking about my own levers of privilege as well.

Corey Ponder: Something that I talk about a lot actually is that we do all have privileges , and if we sit back and think about it, while we might be because of intersectionality in some categories without privilege, we might also have other ways to leverage privilege because of the life that we've been able to live or the experiences we've been able to have. And so I think, like you said, it's something that we can all do is really step back and reflect and think about how they show up. And so then how can we show up for others, but also then like when people need to show up for us and how can we can be our fullest self so people see and know that part of us as well.

Tiffany Yu: Hmm. Now we're in the middle of a pandemic.  People can show up to protests. It's a different kind of energy, I'm wondering, is there a word or a phrase that the energy that you're sensing now is making you feel?

Corey Ponder: The word that came to mind immediately was intentional, because I do think that in other moments, the energy was, it was angry. It was swift, but it was felt more like a reaction. And I think this time that I feel like people are being. And I hope that it continues as sustains, but I feel like what I am seeing right now are intentional conversations. Not just about , this is what happened, but Oh, why? We need to understand why we need to be intentional about that, so that we can actually come up with solutions. And I feel like I've been seeing more of those conversations than I have at any of these other moments where similar things have happened or traumas have been afflicted upon the black communities around the country. So intentional would be the word that I would use.  

Tiffany Yu: I love that word. I think my word is hopeful. There's a part of me  that says, maybe it's starting as performative, but that's the start. That's your 0.0. So I'm hopeful that you started with a black box and there will be more. The black box is just the beginning. So if people want to follow your work, hire you, how does that work? Where can they find you? 

Corey Ponder: So you can find me either at my website, which is CoreyPonder.com, C O R E Y. Sometimes people forget the E but that's the most important vowel. And then I also have a business site Em|PACT Strategies, also with an E, not an I, so E M P A C T strategies.com. You can hire me there for workshops , facilitation or speaking engagements around empathy, the power of empathy, allyship, and inclusion, or unpacking some of those things around that like privilege, bias, identity. So you can find me there. And then on social media, I'm @CoreyTPonder everywhere. So you can also reach out to me there as well.

Tiffany Yu: And last question for you. So I listened to Brene Brown's interview with Ibram X. Kendi, and she had asked him a question, what's something people mistake about you? And he said, it's that I'm very, very serious and angry all the time. And it made me reflect on how those of us who work in this equity, justice space are seen as serious and angry. And so I'm curious, what, what are you doing for fun and play? 

Corey Ponder: Balance is so important. And that was actually my buzzword of 2019. I feel like Peewee Herman, how we used to have a secret word that people had to say back in the day. I'm dating myself on that, but balance. So I spend a lot of time right now working on music. I'm actually planning to release an album of music that I've been working on for about a year on July 10th. So that's been fun because it's allowed me to produce, sing, write, perform, deliver all of that material, which really focuses on myself and my own feelings and my own journey. So that will probably be the biggest thing. And then secondarily, I would say hiking, I love to get out in nature. Now when quarantine has allowed it.

 Tiffany Yu: Awesome. Thanks Corey, for coming on our show. And that is the end of this episode.


Tiffany Yu
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